{"blyg":"0.4","id":"43zyedm0gh98cyyvb4rh99q1ne","kind":"thread","origin":"https://blyg.bricolage.io/","page":"t/43zyedm0gh98cyyvb4rh99q1ne/","author":{"name":"Kyle Mathews","url":"https://blyg.bricolage.io/"},"created":"2026-11-02T03:36:58Z","updated":"2026-11-02T03:43:38Z","version":1,"content_md":"![[3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr]]\n> Chutney literally translates to lickable, so relish would be the closest western concept. Mango chutney is close to a jam. Sweet and sour.\n\nHeh I didn't realize sweet/sour stuff in english/American traditions is in part inspired by Indian chutneys — tomato ketchup is in part directly descended\n\n1. 1600s — Southeast Asia: British traders encounter fermented fish sauces, probably including Chinese kê-tsiap.\n2. 1700s — Britain: The British adapt the idea into mushroom, walnut, anchovy, and oyster ketchups. These are salty, savory, concentrated flavorings, often closer to Worcestershire sauce.\n3. Early 1800s — America: Tomato ketchup appears, initially without the substantial sweetness of modern ketchup.\n4. Mid-to-late 1800s — America: Tomato ketchup increasingly incorporates sugar, vinegar, and spices, converging with the existing sweet-and-sour pickle and relish tradition.\n5. 1876 onward — Heinz: Commercial production helps standardize the thick, sweet, acidic tomato sauce we know today.&#x20;\n\n\nSo there's a remarkable convergence:\n\n|                 | Indian fruit chutney          | American tomato ketchup           |\n| --------------- | ----------------------------- | --------------------------------- |\n| Main ingredient | Mango, tamarind, tomato, etc. | Tomato                            |\n| Sweetness       | Sugar or jaggery              | Sugar                             |\n| Sourness        | Tamarind, lime, vinegar       | Vinegar                           |\n| Spices          | Variable, often complex       | Cloves, allspice, cinnamon, onion |\n| Preservation    | Cooking, sugar, acid          | Cooking, sugar, acid              |\n| Texture         | Chunky or smooth              | Smooth                            |\n\nModern ketchup is arguably a standardized, industrially optimized tomato chutney, even though the historical lineages are distinct.\n\nWhat's especially interesting is how much diversity disappeared when Heinz-style ketchup became dominant. Nineteenth-century American cookbooks featured walnut, mushroom, cucumber, and numerous fruit ketchups. Some fruit varieties were essentially smooth, sweet-and-sour relishes.&#x20;\n\nIt makes you wonder what American condiment culture would look like if plum ketchup, peach ketchup, and spiced cherry ketchup had survived alongside tomato ketchup as everyday staples.\n\n---\n\n![[3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr]]\n>>current thing is learning herbs as we planted like 17 different European herbs so it's fun to have chatgpt make up or modify recipes to use them. Tarragon and fried sage are two early favorites.\n> \n> I think the only European herb I’ve used is rosemary, on roast potatoes. No instincts on how they work generally.\n\nThyme was the main one I had intuition previously as it's in tons of soups, etc. but lots of recipe generation + experiments are bringing the others along.","content_html":"<blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion blyg-partial\" data-blyg-id=\"3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr\" data-blyg-version=\"1\" data-blyg-origin=\"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/\">\n<p>Chutney literally translates to lickable, so relish would be the closest western concept. Mango chutney is close to a jam. Sweet and sour.</p>\n</blockquote>\n<p>Heh I didn't realize sweet/sour stuff in english/American traditions is in part inspired by Indian chutneys — tomato ketchup is in part directly descended</p>\n<ol>\n<li>1600s — Southeast Asia: British traders encounter fermented fish sauces, probably including Chinese kê-tsiap.</li>\n<li>1700s — Britain: The British adapt the idea into mushroom, walnut, anchovy, and oyster ketchups. These are salty, savory, concentrated flavorings, often closer to Worcestershire sauce.</li>\n<li>Early 1800s — America: Tomato ketchup appears, initially without the substantial sweetness of modern ketchup.</li>\n<li>Mid-to-late 1800s — America: Tomato ketchup increasingly incorporates sugar, vinegar, and spices, converging with the existing sweet-and-sour pickle and relish tradition.</li>\n<li>1876 onward — Heinz: Commercial production helps standardize the thick, sweet, acidic tomato sauce we know today. </li>\n</ol>\n<p>So there's a remarkable convergence:</p>\n<table>\n<thead>\n<tr>\n<th></th>\n<th>Indian fruit chutney</th>\n<th>American tomato ketchup</th>\n</tr>\n</thead>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td>Main ingredient</td>\n<td>Mango, tamarind, tomato, etc.</td>\n<td>Tomato</td>\n</tr>\n<tr>\n<td>Sweetness</td>\n<td>Sugar or jaggery</td>\n<td>Sugar</td>\n</tr>\n<tr>\n<td>Sourness</td>\n<td>Tamarind, lime, vinegar</td>\n<td>Vinegar</td>\n</tr>\n<tr>\n<td>Spices</td>\n<td>Variable, often complex</td>\n<td>Cloves, allspice, cinnamon, onion</td>\n</tr>\n<tr>\n<td>Preservation</td>\n<td>Cooking, sugar, acid</td>\n<td>Cooking, sugar, acid</td>\n</tr>\n<tr>\n<td>Texture</td>\n<td>Chunky or smooth</td>\n<td>Smooth</td>\n</tr>\n</tbody>\n</table>\n<p>Modern ketchup is arguably a standardized, industrially optimized tomato chutney, even though the historical lineages are distinct.</p>\n<p>What's especially interesting is how much diversity disappeared when Heinz-style ketchup became dominant. Nineteenth-century American cookbooks featured walnut, mushroom, cucumber, and numerous fruit ketchups. Some fruit varieties were essentially smooth, sweet-and-sour relishes. </p>\n<p>It makes you wonder what American condiment culture would look like if plum ketchup, peach ketchup, and spiced cherry ketchup had survived alongside tomato ketchup as everyday staples.</p>\n<hr>\n\n<blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion blyg-partial\" data-blyg-id=\"3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr\" data-blyg-version=\"1\" data-blyg-origin=\"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/\">\n<p>current thing is learning herbs as we planted like 17 different European herbs so it&#39;s fun to have chatgpt make up or modify recipes to use them. Tarragon and fried sage are two early favorites.</p>\n<p>I think the only European herb I’ve used is rosemary, on roast potatoes. No instincts on how they work generally.</p>\n</blockquote>\n<p>Thyme was the main one I had intuition previously as it's in tons of soups, etc. but lots of recipe generation + experiments are bringing the others along.</p>\n","content_hash":"sha256:2dfe0a1f6572c187ae6e9ca34388878b5a4a9f016a1467a31e806a9c1dba8859","media":[],"transclusions":[{"id":"3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr","version":1,"origin":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/","selector":{"exact":"Chutney literally translates to lickable, so relish would be the closest western concept. Mango chutney is close to a jam. Sweet and sour.","prefix":"ike them at Indian restaurants.\n","suffix":"\nJam, preserves, compotes go wei"},"cited":{"source":"Venkatesh Rao's Blyg","author":"Venkatesh Rao","excerpt":"I didn't grow up with chutney really as the us mostly lost whatever little savor…","url":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/t/3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr/","retrieved":"2026-11-02T03:43:38Z"}},{"id":"3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr","version":1,"origin":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/","selector":{"exact":"current thing is learning herbs as we planted like 17 different European herbs so it's fun to have chatgpt make up or modify recipes to use them. Tarragon and fried sage are two early favorites.\nI think the only European herb I’ve used is rosemary, on roast potatoes. No instincts on how they work generally.","prefix":"ys. Fig jam is especially good.\n"},"cited":{"source":"Venkatesh Rao's Blyg","author":"Venkatesh Rao","excerpt":"I didn't grow up with chutney really as the us mostly lost whatever little savor…","url":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/t/3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr/","retrieved":"2026-11-02T03:43:38Z"}}],"stub_of":{"origin":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/","id":"3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr","version":1,"cited":{"source":"Venkatesh Rao's Blyg","author":"Venkatesh Rao","excerpt":"I didn't grow up with chutney really as the us mostly lost whatever little savor…","url":"https://venkateshrao.com/blyg/t/3msb42vqtt1bn0f9emxxat7ttr/","retrieved":"2026-11-02T03:43:38Z"}},"changelog":[{"version":1,"at":"2026-11-02T03:43:38Z","note":null}]}